Why Kids Get Hurt in Youth Sports—and How to Prevent Injuries Before They Start

All right, everyone. Welcome back to Chirocast brought to you by Chiro Touch. Uh, it's been a little while

since our last episode, and we are excited to be back with a conversation that feels especially timely. We're

going to talk about youth sports today. Uh, they're growing very fast and unfortunately so are some of the

injuries that come with them. Today, our guest, we are joined by Dr. Tim Mags.

He's a chiropractor, author, and educator who spent more than 25 years

focused on one question. How do we protect young athletes before they get

injured? Dr. Mags is the founder of SEOA, aka concerned parents of young

athletes. It's a national preventative program that helps identify structural imbalances early and positions

chiropractors as leaders in youth sports injury prevention. Dr. Mags, welcome.

We're so happy to have you here. Thank you, Dr. Stef. It's it's a joy to be here. It's probably my favorite topic

to talk about. So, I look forward to the next hour. Yeah. So before we talk about program

and framework, I want to start with you and your lead in here was perfect. Um,

when did youth sports first become such a meaningful focus for you in your career?

It started probably close to 25 years ago. Uh, approximately

30 years ago, I had the wonderful opportunity of working four years with the New York Giants. And that was a a

tremendous eye openener to me because here you're dealing with these multi-million dollar athletes,

but I was shocked when the care of them, they almost waited for

them to become injured and then they'd send them down the hall to the physical therapist or the chiropractor. And

chiropractors are in every locker room. Every pro football team, for example,

has a chiropractor, but they're kind of off in the corner and they adjust players that like to be adjusted. They

um, you know, if they're not getting better traditionally, they send them to the chiropractor. But that's not what

I'm talking about at all. So once I saw that, it started what I have now

developed as the structural management program. And that started then and I say

I didn't know enough then but I knew there's information that we can find on

athletes before they become injured. So that started the whole thing. And then approximately five years, six years

after that, I had a case in my office where a high school kid came in and he

he had a um a division one scholarship waiting for him, but he was in the final

semester of high school and he couldn't run because of a back injury. So the clock was ticking and it became

critically important that we evaluate and understand what it was and get them get them better. And we did, but it

really I said this whole market or this whole population

is really not looked at at all. They are kind of an afterthought and and at that

point in time I said we need to really start looking into that. So that really was the start of it.

Okay. Side question. Are you still a Giants fan? I am. I am.

Okay. As painful as that is, I am. Okay. So audience so they know um Dr.

Mags where do you live right now? I live well for those who aren't in the area I live near Albany or Saratoga, New

York. Yep. And so I'm down the road or down the throughway in Rochester, New York. And so at some point when you're down

the throughway, there's like an invisible line that happens and we're all Bills fans. So very close to

Buffalo. Go Bills. Sorry Giants. Well, I'm rooting for you now, believe me.

Good times. Good times. Okay, cool. This is neat because I've always wondered um you know obviously I was aware of the

fact there's chiropractors in every locker room for NFL and probably most professional sports, but I have always

wondered like what is the application of that look like and is it used in a preventative

fashion or you know I mean it's great obviously chiropractic using people to make them get and feel better if they

have a problem but I wonder how many of those players are being adjusted you know if we want to say proactively or or

using it in that vein. Um, so this is really cool because I I don't think that happens very much. I don't know how it

might be different now. Um, but that's neat that that's kind of uh how you how

you kind of got your start kind of going down this path. Um,

all right, cool. So, tell me about your program. I know that's kind of open-ended, but I want to hear about it.

No, it's a it's a good question. It's such a broad topic and when when we

started my goal was uh when I started the structural management program it was

also the beginning of what we call the structural fingerprint exam and that exam is a biomechanical exam. So if you

look at every human being as an architectural structure and let's say they don't talk to you, let's say they

don't give you any information, there are tests that can be done on that structure much like a building that can

tell you where the asymmetries are, the imbalances are as a person ages, where

the wear and tear is, where the restrictions are. And all of that is vital information on the longevity of

that structure. So we we then started realizing at the age of 12, we can do

this structural fingerprint exam and we really hope that they've never been injured, although most of them have. But

even with a never-before injured and not currently injured young athlete, we can

do our biomechanical exam and give very unique critical information that is

going to affect their lifetime. and and now we've really incorporated how do how do you correct what you found to put

them into safer position for sports. So we've evolved it tremendously over the

last 25 years and and now you know youth sports has grown bigger than the NFL now

and they still are governed by health insurance guidelines.

So you can see the major gap there. Yeah. So, in terms of youth sports, like

you just said, how much it's grown and how much more popular maybe they've been um in more recent years, what do you

think has changed the most besides the volume, right? Um what do you think has

changed or been happening that is contributing to uh what these kids are experiencing now? It's a great question.

If you see where it's at now, it's larger than the NFL.

Um, private equity firms are now investing billions, and if you go on AI,

Chat GPT, it'll confirm it. They're investing billions into youth sports because there's just such a fever. Now,

I say church is no longer what you do on Sunday. It's it's sports.

So, it's taking the place of religion. So, with that being said, the demand on

these younger athletes is to start younger. The parents are really the

the contributors to the fever because all of us as parents want our child to

do better, to play more, to get a scholarship, to, you know, go. So I I

have a very large middle school, high school practice, and I can tell you at

the age of 12 and 13, these kids have two or three coaches. They're in the weight room at that age. And all of it

starts with the routine medical exam. Eyes, ears, nose, and throat.

So you can see the catastrophe that's occurring. The loading has increased, the volume has increased, the full

calendar has increased, and they're starting younger, and no one is looking

at any part of their mechanical structure. Yeah, I was just going to say it seems like yes, you want to they all

have to get physicals, right, and be cleared to be able to practice. Um, but I feel like a lot of that uh the focus

of that physical is let's make sure it's safe for this kid to participate so they

don't die, right? So, they're checking out their heart hopefully and some other things too. But yeah, I mean, and this

is not to knock traditional medicine because they have their place and their focus, but that's what their focus is.

It's not biomechanical. and um it seems that they're kind of missing the boat. So, seems like a good opportunity for

chiropractors to step in. Well, I I've you know, I've gone out on the edge and I I even on my website, the

wrong doctors are in charge. The wrong testing is being done. And what happens

is they don't know that they're the wrong doctors. They're doing what they

know. But but the medical model is the cause of muscularkeeletal problems

because it's a reactive model and then they treat the symptoms. So the

chiropractic profession unfortunately Dr. Steph I'm critical of us because I say we have morphed into that model

where we're treating pain. We market pain and yet we're the only ones who

really understand biomechanics and we're the only ones that has the scope of practice that will allow us to take

biomechanical x-rays, allow us to take get MRIs to identify the degrees of the

injuries, allow us to do chiropractic and physical therapy. We're one-stop shopping, but we as a profession, we

need to rally together and understand it. And I think I've developed the turnkey system that would be optimal and

ideal for the profession to embrace. Would you propose that chiropractors be

the ones that uh you know if they're trained in this type of specialization? But do you think that we should be the

ones clearing kids to participate or should it be like a team effort? Like what do you how do you envision that if

it was like a pie in the sky situation? Yeah. And and again I love your questions. You I think you're really

hitting the nail on the head. We should be the lead authority on

muscularkeeletal when it goes into the concussion world. That's neurology. And and although we

might have an opinion, I think the neurologist has to be in charge. Or if it's outside our scope, it's a fracture

or a Liz Frank injury, that type of thing. But for muscularkeeletal, I can

tell you because I've examined now well over 3,000 kids in the last 20 years.

And that's x-rays of every one of those kids. Every one of them has imbalances

and asymmetries. And then the truth is the medical

community does not understand muscularkeeletal. Sure. You know what I mean? they'll go to the

docs and the docs will recommend a medication or go to physical therapy for a brief stint of physical therapy but no

one is looking at the biomechanical faults or we call a structural fingerprint and then I'll tell you

another piece that really adds to this whole thing as these kids are growing

their legs do not grow evenly so every year or two years it's

important to look at femoral head height and to adapt accordingly to try to get them level with the

appropriate orthotic and lift uh because they're not level and very often they

keep growing more unlevel and and I call femoral head height the most important

measurement in the body because it's it tells you what the lower extremity weight distribution is the

imbalance and it's a foundation of the spine the spine is on an imbalanced

foundation so it's it's a critical measurement and and I've now got eight research papers

published on this topic and it's it's staggering the the um data that is

available and the information that's out there and and my whole mission is for us

as a profession to embrace it and let's leapfrog everyone and start giving the

care to this age group that will change their future. Got it. How do you propose that we

measure that? Would it be just a top to P pelvis and you're looking at the difference between the femoral head

height or are you getting like measuring like actual leg length with the with the with the digital X-rays now uh

A to P pelvis you just uh easily in 3 seconds you can measure uh femoral head

height. Okay. And 3 millimeters in below is classified as optimal. Above 3 millimeters is not

optimal. But we uh we also have done extensive studies of doing it barefoot

versus orthotics in the shoes. And so there's so much data now that we've

proven how to do it. It's just it's insane that we continue to be part of that medical

model and only treat these kids when they hurt. Got it. Yeah. That's nuts. So, it sounds

like you're pointing I feel like a lot of people with injuries, especially with kids, they want to just blame it on

overuse. So, I feel like that may or may not be a component, but is that a term

that you use? You talk to kids and parents about that? Like, what do you what do you think about that?

No, I I agree. Overuse is what's used a lot today, but I use I use it a lot in

combination with biomechanical faults. And when you get both involved, there's

an exponentialism of abnormal loading. And then when you uh have sports

specialization, a pitcher, a tennis player, you know, where you're using the

same joints repeatedly, that overuse combined with the biomechanical faults, that's that's why I say today

muscularkeletal is the leading cost in healthc care. 20 years from now and beyond, it's going to explode as far as

joint replacements, the the, you know, the whole opioid crisis, loss of quality

of life, pain management departments, that's what's coming because we're not

looking at how to solve the problem. Yeah. So, a quick uh uh story here. my

uh so I see patients still and I have a home practice but everyone comes through my front porch with my outside little

door right not like a regular door it's like a porch door and I've noticed um so I have higher volume so there's more

people coming through than maybe would be at a normal person's house right and then also none of them are doing it

right so they go to yank on the handle without like turning the latch to actually like open the door

you need a distraction video yeah I've got overuse issue because it's getting used more. I've got a

biomechanical issue because they're all doing it wrong. And the handle, it's like a disaster. So, it's a I have to

tighten the stupid thing on it all the time. And patients are always like they'll look at they'll turn back and

they're holding the handle in their hand because it came off. Like, it's a disaster. And so, I just I still don't

know what the answer is. I think my next step I'm going to put up a little sign, but I've been I'm super anti-sign because I feel like no one reads them.

once once this they've seen the sign a few times, they get used to it and it just does not register anymore. Um, but

yeah, I mean it's as simple as that. Like they don't know how to use the handle, so it's causing a problem. And unfortunately, I think that really

resonated. I've never considered it um in those terms that, you know, kids are growing and their legs are not growing

at the same rate. Like that makes complete sense. Why would they be? Um, yeah. So, we really need to pay close

attention to that population so that I'll give I'll give you an example. We had a patient come in when she was a um

a junior in high school about three years ago. And so we put orthotics in

her shoes. We use orthotics for everyone because one of our studies showed that a

100% of the population have varying degrees of collapse of the feet. And because I'm so architecture oriented,

it's like, okay, let's fix the foundation. So I go through the process of making patients understand the

importance of orthotics. Number one. So at that time we x-rayed her with orthotics on and her femoral head height

was 1.5 millime different which makes it normal.

She stops coming in three years later she's a freshman in college. She's on the division one track program. She's

got a chronic hamstring that she cannot heal on her own and she's been out for

six weeks. We bring her back in. We put new orthotics in her shoes. We re-exray her

femoral head height. It goes from 1.5 to 12.1. There in lies why that one hamstring

won't heal. Okay? And that story is behind every kid out there. So if you

spent a week in my office, you'd go back to your office and you'd say, "We've got to change what we're doing. We're

missing all of this." Yeah. I'm already thinking that. I know. I know. I need to take a ride

down the throughway and come hang out with you. Well, we would love to have you because I I I love it when docs visit. But

here's the thing. I spent seven years in a school. I had an office in a school

and you may be familiar with Christian Brothers Academy. I don't think I've heard of them, but they're in Syracuse and they're in

Albany. So, it's the largest private school in upstate New York. And I had an office in the school for seven years.

And my whole mission was to make that the model. And therefore, I would do

every opportunity I could to educate parents that all of your kids have biomechanical faults. We will evaluate

them at no cost. And I'm here once a week to be able to treat them as just

standard. I mean, it's you have to bring them in once a week. It's not necessarily for the injury, but for and

it went incredibly well. But then COVID really um zapped us and by the time I

got back in the school it was all new parents and I couldn't afford the time to stay there. But every school should

have a chiropractor in the school teaching biomechanics encouraging these

exams. My goal is for every kid in the country to get this exam before the season starts. And until we do that,

these kids are flying without a net and nobody has a clue what injuries are coming.

Got it. Yeah. So why why do you think the system tends to wait for a problem

instead of prioritizing prevention? Well, because it's the same as in pro locker rooms. The the athletic trainer

and the orthopedist are in charge. That's their model. That's what they do.

That's what they know. And the whole system is set up that way be set up for

that because insurance is set up for that. Okay? So everything is set up for that. Nobody

knows that there is an alternative approach. And that's why I feel like I'm

out on the corner screaming. I'm I've written hundreds of articles. I've given hundreds and hundreds of seminars. And

you feel like you're not making any progress, but I'm sure there's an impact from it. But if if we as a profession

could embrace this, I I just think that we as a profession could change the

course of history. Sure. It's it's that impactful. Yeah. So, you've mentioned the age 12 to

13 a few times now. So, two questions. Um, how early do you think these

imbalances start? And are is there a a optimal age or an age where maybe

someone would be too young to be evaluated? Great question. Again, um we're

asymmetrical when we're born. And I say from the moment that child

stands, abnormal loading is starting to accumulate. And and again, the many

years I've been in practice, I've learned little quips of how I make people understand what I'm trying to say without going into detail. I say, "And

then you have had a pathway of banana peels your entire life, and here you are today."

So the age of seven is when we start with orthotics

and we take one X-ray femoral head height. The age of 12 is when we do our

full structural fingerprint exam uh because the the child is developed at

that point. We've got 16point exam with four standing biomechanical X-rays.

Okay, got it. Do you shoot films in your office? I do. Okay. I don't see how this could work. I mean, you could do it if you had I have

something but you see we we have we've got this concept in our profession that don't

x-ray and and I say that's that's tanamount to the medics not doing blood tests.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And I gave a talk to the graduates of Northeast Chiropractic College uh I don't know

three four months ago and I talked about the importance of X-rays and I showed them femoral head

height and the whole thing and one of them came up to me and said would you talk to our radiology department because

they tell us not to take X-rays. So, we have an identity crisis in our

profession. But I can tell you this, we've got a marking system for our X-rays that applies to every X-ray

series you take. And it's as simple as this, Dr. Steph. We know what a normal

lordic curve is in the neck. If it's not that, there's abnormal loading.

Yeah. So, we have that for the four X-rays that we take. Every patient has abnormal

biomechanical loading that is either a not symptomatic yet or is going to be

symptomatic. Got it. Yeah. I went to Well, it was NYCC at the time, so that's where I went

to school. And I'll never forget I had a patient once that was coming into clinic and they had called ahead of time and

they needed an X-ray and I was so excited because I was like, "Oh my god, I got to take an X-ray of someone. This

is amazing." But I think it was something weird going to be like their foot or something. It wasn't like a spine.

No. Well, well, here's what happened to me. I went to National College and we had we

had intense radiology. Uh, so the day I graduated, I I got an

X-ray system, started X-raying the day I graduated. I've been in practice 47 years now. So, I had this massive

database. But in addition to that, I had the luxury, the opportunity to lecture

for nine years with Terry Yokum. And I lectured 55 times with him. And I

heard the same lecture 55 times, but I learned something different at every

one. And I'm here to say that imaging, X-ray and MRI, is the key to the future.

And no one has embraced it. And if we can embrace that, we will change the

concept of how to evaluate people. And absolutely, we will become the authorities in

evaluating and caring for people. Yeah. I don't know if I'll say his name correctly, but um I've been reading

Peter Aia. He has a book out and um he talks about that he you know he's a medical doctor and he you know we have

all these regulations like wait to get a um you know you wait to get this imaging

until you're this age and you're going to wait for a DEXA until you're 60 or whatever it's supposed to be. And he's like it's way too late. Like

we're we're just finding things way after the fact and it's way harder to help people after things have taken

hold. So um this is not a foreign concept and yeah it is frustrating I think as a practitioner uh when we do

know like the truth here where if you can get ahead of something you're going to help prevent a problem. Um I think

people in our profession who uh are against x-raying you know I think they

would say you know well if it's you know if it's indicated clinically well

there comes a point at which we have to use our evidence that we see in front of our eyeballs and in our everyday

practice and and what we know about the human body and how it works. Um, I think some of those people are they're just

picking a hill to die on and they're just I don't know that they have the background to uh is there really the

evidence to say that it's harmful to uh to do these things for people in the

face of the information that you garner from them to be able to help prevent a problem. So I it's hard it's hard to

measure something that you prevented and maybe that's where the issue lies but when we see it happening all the time

and if we can see that it stops when you do these certain things um yeah

well you have I I go back to if if you remove lab testing from medics

where does healthc care end up and yet we we know that medical evaluate

or medical approach to muscularkeeletal is I mean it's it's foolish

to think that there's any type of logic to that. So, no one has ever really created the m the muscularkeeletal

approach. And I think that's what I've done is created a system that's backed by massive data that's backed by eight

peerre medical journal research papers. We've done all the studies and and now

we have all of the system, the testing, the interpretation, the communication to

the patient so they understand it. We as chiropractors have the just the most

wonderful um toolkit to be able to address what we

found on those tests and that is what will protect and

prevent. Now do I have proof? Well, I do on my sixth paper

and I tell this story and this is what my upcoming book will tell about too. I

bought a professional basketball team for the sole purpose of governing the

locker room because I know that I can't have that clout in another locker room.

So, the team is the Albany Patrun, which are the most storied minor league

professional uh organization ever because Phil Jackson, who is the

winningest coach in NBA history for championships, he won his first

championship with the Albany Patrun. So, in 2020 at the press conference, I said,

"The reason I'm taking ownership isn't for business purposes. It's so that I can govern what the protocols are in the

sports med department. So, the players came into camp, we examined them, x-rayed them, orthotics, lifts if

needed, treated them twice a week, and it nine games in COVID hit.

So, we had nine games with no injury. Now, we couldn't get back to playing again under this system till 2023. So,

we were able to show in 2023 11 players, 32 games, one player missed two games.

And the sixth paper published explains all of the details of how we got to that

point. And those are unprecedented numbers in pro sports. Cool. If someone wanted to read some of

your research, how might they be able to find it? They go to drt timmags.com

up in the righth hand corner and I'm not a web guy so I have to explain it the way I would. There are two little

horizontal lines. If you click on that uh scroll down will occur published

studies. All eight all eight of them are right there. Nice. I love it.

Um so question the exam that you do the structural fingerprint exam um

with the imaging and we've kind of obviously talked about the imaging here but are you doing this you're doing the

imaging standing right correct I mean even if I any film I've ever taken even the cervical films I always

write standing on the uh order because I mean I want to see what most we're

spending most of our time upright and when we're being functional trying to do stuff we're upright. So I want to see things through that lens. But is there

any other reason why you would prefer standing versus you know laying down that often medical community would

default to um or it's just obvious? First of all, why why do they do it

recumbent? They do it recumbent because better control of the patient. They aren't concerned with what gravity shows

and they aren't looking for biomechanics. So it doesn't matter. But I tell patients, you're a victim of

gravity and aging and stress. And number two, as human beings, as architectural

structures, over time, we're victims of compression. And where does the body

compress? Where do we lose height? We lose it in the joints, the discs. So therefore, which takes us maybe down a

little different tangent, and it's not necessarily the kids, but we have five spinal decompression systems in our

office because compression in the spine is an epidemic in our country. The

medics call, you've got arthritis, here, take some ibuprofen or whatever.

However, that those joints that are wearing, they fit right into the chiropractic lexicon because there

they've lost mobility, the loading is abnormal, and we want to get life back

into those joints, which decompression does. So, we want to see what you look

like standing because we use biomechanical measurements as an architectural structure. Are you

symmetrical? Are you level? Are your centers of gravity good? and where is the wear and tear and those issues apply

to every patient that we x-ray. So how does

how would you say your clinical decision- making is impacted by the imaging? So for example um do you ever

have patients where they don't have that that difference between the femoral heads? It's less than 3 millimeters. So

you wouldn't recommend orthotics or is everyone getting orthotics because you know is there like a foot exam involved

here too and you're doing something different to support the foot itself not necessarily correct for that femoral

head difference. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, it makes perfect sense. And that's again I love your question. So

here's the situation. I lectured for 20 years for foot levelers. I claim and in

my seminars I claim I've sold more orthotics than anyone in history. Okay? I've never had anybody refute it. So

until they do, I'm going to say I've sold more than anybody. And then what I did my fifth paper that is on my

website, we examined a thousand1 patients feet and we concluded that

those thousand1 patients, every one of them had varying degrees of collapse of

parts of their feet. Secondly, we learned that as we age, feet continue to

collapse. So therefore, knowing that muscularkeeletal is the leading cost, I

don't even examine the feet anymore. We start with orthotics and then we look at

femoral head height because the feet in the collapse of the feet and leg length

govern femoral head height. If we fix the feet, the only variable is femoral head height. So that will tell us on that

X-ray. Now, yes, we get people that are under three millimeters, but they have orthotics. And now we set up our

treatment program. Now that we know they're balanced, now we set up our treatment program.

Got it. Um, how do you feel about uh heel lifts? Because I feel like a lot of docs are just going to see an imbalance

with femoral heads, one leg longer than the other, whatever, and they they just want to go right to a heel lift. um

whether that's in conjunction with or separate from an orthotic. So comment well we we yeah we use heel lifts

probably 70% of our patients okay with with orthotics. However I will have

that rare patient that doesn't want orthotics or they wear a shoe that doesn't tolerate an orthotic. I'll

recommend a heel lift. But that's that's very very rare. But I can see the logic in it.

Interesting. Um, okay. Next question. Sorry, we're on orthotics now. Um, especially with kids,

their feet are growing. So, whether it's kids or adults, you can answer both, but how frequently might you recommend?

Let's start with kids. How frequently do they need to get new orthotics? Because I could see I mean, they're grow out of

their clothes like, you know, they're growing like weeds sometimes. So, how frequently do they need new orthotics or

what might what might you recommend in terms of how frequently they need to be replaced? Right. And and again, I think I don't

know this for sure, Dr. Steph, but I think I see I've seen more kids over the years than anyone, and I think I've

recommended more orthotics than anyone. So, I always say they will um wear them

out before they outgrow them. Okay? So, when they're active in sports, I

recommend between one and two years. Every kid is different as far as how rough they are on their shoes, but we

recommend a full orthotic and a cleat orthotic because mo many sports have cleats. So that's a threequarter

orthotic. So therefore, they're not wearing the same orthotic full time, but generally one to two years is how often

you should. And I I frame it as an investment in your child

to minimize and and let me take it back a step because we're missing one key element here. I have a graphic that I

now use that I developed that is a it looks like a skeleton almost but it's it's an asymmetrical skeleton and we

named it actuary Alex male female actuary that structure has a

cost attached to it before it dies and that cost it's going to start out with

injuries it's going to move into joint problems it's going to then move into

joint replacement. It's going to move into disabilities. It's going to move into loss of quality of life until the

person dies and it's held getting old. So, we want to use that name to educate

parents. Your child has a cost attached to it and that cost is going to be more than your generation is paying. So,

therefore, as an investment on the front end, every year to two years, we want to

have new orthotics put in the shoes. Got it. So, I'm going to throw you a curveball here because it hasn't been

mentioned yet, but what do you ever care for kids or teenagers, whatever. What

about dancers? Because that is a sport and I think it can be pretty rigorous,

but um a I mean, do you have any comments here? But also, they especially

like if it's ballet, they can't wear an orthotic in that shoe, right? So, what do we do about that?

Well, it's the same as swimmers. It's the same as wrestlers. So there are

sports that don't would never tolerate an orthotic, but that's only you. So you can't wear it, but you can wear it the

rest of your life and you wear it when cuz the other 8 10 hours that you're up and about.

Okay, perfect. It's an automatic that you get it. And I know there are going to be times you don't wear it, but you know, it's a

ratio. You want to have it in the when you're in that situation of walking, standing as much as possible.

Got it. Okay, perfect. So, I think you might have touched on this, like drawing a distinction with parents to get them

to understand um the difference between treating symptoms versus caring for

structure. Um it's not just the financial investment. There also might be like a time investment. They have to

come in see you and all the things. So, how do you overcome or explain that to patients

in general or parents? Well, first of all, uh, parents

will do anything for their kids. I think you noticed that. Well, will they do anything for their

kids or are they more likely to do anything for their pets? I feel like people will spend anything

on their pets. They will. You see, in New York, you can't adjust pets.

Well, yeah. I didn't mean for chiropractic, but but I mean, I don't have kids, so I'm not trying to say I

would put my pet before my kid, but that's very true. with but but kids are in the same category.

So parents will take bullets for their kids more than they will for themselves.

All right. Now, with that being said, I'm I will make a statement here that I believe to be true.

The overwhelming programming that the current system has on the public, which

is what does my insurance cover? If I don't hurt, I don't have time.

Yeah. that dominates what my educational logic tries to do.

So I have said to parents endlessly and that's why I ultimately went into the school. I got approval to go into the

school to make it easier for parents. But I say once a week until they

graduate. That's when they're not injured. Once a week until they graduate. And I have families that stick

to it. Most families can't and don't because you don't have kids. I'll tell

you this, there's no schedule busier than a family that has kids in middle school, high school.

I don't know how they do it. Yeah. It's insane. Yeah. So, it's it's But I constantly

give that message once a week until they graduate. And some do, most don't, but

they call back when the kids's injured. Now, you get them back into it again. But I say I'm out here alone singing

this song. If we as a profession could come out with the new standards of youth

sports, people would listen. You know what I mean? Because there's so so many people

now have an interest in youth sports from an economic point of view. There's so much money to be made.

That's interesting. How how is there money to be made? I don't know if you can explain that. Yeah. Well, think of equipment.

Okay. Think of costs to be part of a league. Think of tournaments. Aaou

parents are spending more money than they've ever spent in their life. And everybody wants a piece of that.

Yep. So, and that again is only growing. And that's why I say what has lagged behind

is the sports medicine department. Yeah. And and kind of one of the um missions

that I've been on, Dr. Bennett Amalu back in I don't even remember the year.

He he was a Nigerian pathologist in Pittsburgh and he wanted to prove that

repeated hits to the head would cause injury and damage and personality

changes. And so ultimately he went up against the NFL. They didn't want that information out there. He beat

I feel like I've heard this story. Yeah, it's it's in the movie Concussion. He beat the NFL

and now concussion protocols are part of every organization in the country.

But if you think about it, Dr. Steph, that's from here up. There are no protocols from here down.

And that's what I want my protocols to become those protocols because we've got the proof. I have far more evidence than

Dr. Amalu had. And we've got everything in place. We just need to get chiropractors aligned with it and have a

system where they can become part of it, trained, certified. They're on the website and it I think it would explode.

So, here's a crazy question, too. So, I think part of what we would need to get something like that going would be the

support and resources of one of our colleges or like having it be part of our education. Um, and so that being

said though, what do you think of because you just mentioned Pittsburgh, um, the new chiropractic program that

they are rolling out. Not that we know anything about it, but the idea of a major large university having a

chiropractic program that wasn't a chiropractic specific school. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Well, it it you know, you say chiropractic. It's almost I've thought about it like a

new profession, you know, because I don't want to ste I don't want to try and steer chiropractic and BJ Palmer and

the philosophies of all of those, you know, um, forefathers to come into my

system. But I say we have to progress with the times and the needs of the public. So I do think that some school

would do well to create a physical medicine profession that uses imaging

that uses you know pre-injjury uh approach and then uses all of the

tools to to treat in rehab even before injuries. Now, one of the things I'm

doing, and I'm I'm marketing it to pro sports, and I know one of these days with all I have, somebody's going to

agree to it, is the development of an injury prevention department. Yeah. And I say a pro team that has, let's

say, a pitcher that's making $50 million a year. To develop a pre uh um prevention

department would cost$1 to2 million a year. And think of the advantage. no

stress. The players are evaluated. They come in for treatment all season. The

fixed cost, they would now not be in the injury

department as much. So, the injury department would go way down. The economics of the team and the state

would go up because teams now can be more competitive because they're not losing key players. So, you know that

that's going to happen. I'm being very slow in in approaching it because having

worked with the Giants, I understand how to get it to that level. I just am kind of building this ship hoping that I can

get people come on board with me because there's a lot of young excited chiropractor sports is the biggest thing

out there. Yeah. Being a Bills fan, right? Right. Also, we have a lot of hockey around here. I feel like it's got

to be the same by you for like youth sports. Um, it is. And I'm just imagining like can you put an orthotic

in a hockey skate? Yeah, that's where a cleat orthotic or a hockey orthotic or a skate orthotic.

It's the same threequarter orthotic. Ah, okay. Cool. Do you actually have uh kids that do that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have a lot of them. That's what we do. I mean, we treat so many kids and I don't even care what

sport they play. My my conclusion now after all these years is we'll put you into your sport safer and with better

chance of not getting hurt uh than if you didn't come in. Got it. I like it. Now, do you have a

recommendation on best orthotics to purchase? Where to get them is you know

what's because there's so many different ones out there. What do you have a recommendation on that? I uh I do but but I I'm not going to

tell you. So that's okay. No, but I'll tell you why. There's reasons why I I'm not going to tell you.

But here's what I will say. I will say this now. My research has proven that

you don't need custom orthotics. Okay? So they should be more available to

people. There's many over-the-counter orthotics out there because less expensive. Now you say, well, how did

you conclude that? And I'm going to give you the analogy. The most important measurement in the body is femoral head height. No custom

orthotic company out there has ever talked about looking at femoral head height. They try to fix everything in

the foot. The foot is the victim of an imbalance in weight distribution.

So therefore, we want symmetry in both feet, but we then want the X-ray to

determine if there's a femoral head height difference, leg length difference. So, I use the analogy if you

have a front-end misalignment of a car, you don't buy custom tires.

You fix the misalignment and buy tires. Got it.

Okay. I wouldn't have known not to do that. Well, no, but I say that no one has ever

come out and said that, but no one's ever done the research or seen as many people as I've seen over the years. And

it's a major statement because um you don't need custom orthotics.

Interesting. Yeah, I feel like there is a sense out there at least among the profession that you really do. Um so

I'll tell you, you know, I don't have a way to do custom orthotics for my patients, but I also wouldn't have

thought that a noncustom orthotic could be I don't want to say good enough, but

just as good, if not better. So, well, there's there's varying degrees. So there's inexpensive and more

expensive, but the the goal with the feet is to create symmetry. So there are

even shoes and sandals out there that have really good arch support in there. And there are times I'll say to a

patient, okay, if you want to keep that, that's fine because you're creating symmetry of the feet. That's the goal.

Yeah. What would you say to the people who are a big fan of uh like no shoes,

no orthotics, all the barefoot stuff out there? Well, again, I know this. I'm like um uh

Tom Hanks in uh what what's that movie that uh I can't think of.

I know he's got so many. I'll think of it in a second. Again, I believe I'm an expert in this. And one of the reasons

I'm an expert in this for 30 years I have sponsored a team of Kenyan runners.

So I have my own team of East African runners which is where this concept originated.

Okay. And in the end, everyone has varying degrees

of imbalances in the feet that are translated transferred up the body to an

increased Q angle of the knee to a uh greater femoral head height difference.

So if you run barefoot, you're ignoring all of the biomechanical

imbalances that exist and and that's you can't do it. So, I have all of my Kenyon runners wear

orthotics. Okay, got it. That's neat. I don't know how you do some of these things. You've

got you've got stuff all over the place. I love it. I'm busy. But you know what? Here's what

it is. It's a passion. It's a mission I've been on and I absolutely love it. I can't wait to get to work in the

morning. I I do a lot of writing. I do a lot of reading. And uh it's just I've

been blessed in a life that I truly love. I love it. And you know, you you help people, you

love it. You know, the when you help somebody, it's a it's an, you know, a joy you can't describe.

Yeah. That's why, you know, I practiced full-time for 14 years, but I came to Cairo Touch and I just didn't um I

wasn't ready to hang up my hands, I guess. And uh so it was funny. I was like, "Well, we'll just see. Whoever

comes to see me is fine." So, I let I just I didn't I don't have a website. I don't have business cards. I don't

advertise. Yeah. You're like the old time doc. Yeah, we actually joke my practice is

like a speak easy. Like you need the um you need the secret password to get in or the secret knock on the door. Um but

so you know and that's the thing I was just like well I'll just take care of whoever comes see me. And it's been

three years now over three years and and they're still coming. So you know

it's it is nice to keep to keep doing things and still keep a hand in that um even if it isn't like my full-time gig.

So, um, anyways, back to the kids. So, a question. Is there something that Forest Gump is, uh, I' I've got help

from phone a friend? Yes, I think that's what I was what I was thinking, but, uh, I couldn't come

up with it either. Um, okay. So, what is what is one thing that you would want

every parent of a young athlete to understand? They have the ability to change their

child's life in in the most incredible way

if they would if they would not follow their pattern

of thinking. They're robots. They follow the pattern of thinking and then they ask the pediatrician, "What do you

think?" And the pediatricians have no clue. So I would love all parents to recognize the massive importance of

preserving the kids biomechanics which again you know it's an uphill battle but

what will do it is the media the media will change that and if that's why I say

if we can get numbers if we can get media writing about it uh it because it

it has such an impact on society I mean you'll change healthc care if you can get this to become larger nationally you

would change the future of health care in this country. It's it's that big.

What about coaches? So, I often will get a parent and they'll bring their kid in and you know got hurt at practice or

game or whatever and coach said to do x y or z and I'm always like that's not what you should be doing. But um so what

could coaches be doing to make things be different? Coaches see that's a category unto itself because coaches the parents look

to the coach. So the coaches are very influential people. But if you look at the history of coaches in sports

medicine, co most coaches know that the doctors don't know

and that the doctors make will just take the athlete out. So I've always said two

weeks off is not a treatment recommendation, but that's what docs will do to protect themsel. But coaches

know that the docs don't know. So what's happened is the coaches have kind of become the docs because they think they

know more than the other docs and they probably do but they don't know enough

by any means. So they can be a challenge. So either you have the light switch on where they're open to it or

the light switch off where they think they know everything. And that's a challenge too. But that's one that uh

you know if we could put together a healthier organization within our profession, we have a a coach's

educational program to educate them. Because if you think about it, Dr. Steph, if I'm the coach of a football

team and I have you, Dr. Steph, taking care of my quarterback off hours,

that will reduce the risk of him being injured. I would encourage him to go to

you. Yeah, because it's not interfering in my schedule. So, but they just don't know. And that's

the type of education we need to get to these coaches. Yeah, that would be interesting. You know, if there's chiropractors

listening, I know a lot of us will that do have kids. Our kids are playing sports often. So, those would be

interesting conversations for uh for our parents who are Cyros maybe to have with

their uh with their coaches, I think, or see what inroads they can make maybe to help them. Well, and again, I I easily

could put together that program because I've dealt with probably hundreds of coaches over the years, and I can tell

immediately it's a switch on or off. Yeah. All right. Well, you're on it. We've assigned it to you.

Okay. Throw it over here. I've got nothing going. Perfect. Perfect. All right. Good. So,

as we start to wrap up, I just want to zoom out for a moment. So, we talked about biomechanics, imaging, parents,

prevention, coaches. Um, but at the heart of this is protecting kids and

helping them stay healthy. And I think a lot of our focus and parents and the kids and the coach's focus is often on

um, you know, that kid being able to continue in their sport and be successful, but it also is, like you've

said, going to be better for health care in the long run and preventing issues as they age. I have a quick story I want to

share. So, I had a patient a few years ago now who um did I do CrossFit when I

go and uh so she was in our gym doing CrossFit, teenager. Um very healthy,

good movement, uh very good at it. And um long story short, she ended up going

uh sledding on like New Year's Day and uh hit a big bump and when they landed

after the bump, her back started hurting a lot. And so, um, they came in to see

me. Long story short, again, they she has a she had a spondylothesis. I forget

at what level. You know, there's no way to know if it was the sledding that literally did it. Was it there before

and it was just exacerbated? I don't know. But it was obviously very acute. So, I tend to think maybe that sledding

situation was the problem. Um, but it was tough because I knew these people and I knew it was like their dream and

her dream to the CrossFit Open was coming up. it was in like a month later, right, or a month and a half after New

Year's, whenever that was this year or that particular year. And um she obviously wanted to to do that cuz she

wanted to see how far she could get. And I I had to tell her that she couldn't. And it sucked. But um you know, they

were crying in the office. It was very upsetting. But I told them, I'm like, "It's not about like CrossFit this year

or like your sport this year. It's about you doing this next year and the year after that and the year after that. And

if you do this this year and you ignore these signals that your body is sending you, you might, you know, that could be

a problem with you moving forward even worse than kind of what you've got now. So, um thankfully they did follow my

advice. Um they did continue getting care. They did see um went to partners in medical community for advice there,

which really was they may have gone to PT. I don't remember. But um anyways, she she did take the season off. She was

still working out and exercising but not to any uh level of intensity really. And

um she made essentially full recovery. Um she's participated in the open every

year since. Um she's now in college and still doing CrossFit, CrossFit competitions. She's gearing up for this

year. So, um, I think making sure parents have that big picture view of

the future and and trying to explain that to kids because they especially struggle, I think, to because they're

young and they don't have that perspective. Um, I think that's uh really important. So,

well, it's it's interesting and I'll be very brief, but that's the story Terry Yokum told 55 times and he his whole

lectures on spondalo. So here's what what an additional piece of that puzzle

which would have helped you because you said I don't know if it's a it was acute but I don't know if it was he calls it

active or inactive an MRI would have given you that answer and it would have shown edema

and if there's edema that means it just happened and it's a three to four month

time frame to resolve it. If there's no edema the spondalo is not the cause of

the problem. Yeah. So that's that's a piece of the puzzle that he taught me and now I've

used many many times because it's such a common condition in kids. You know, I'm wondering if we did get

I'll have to go back and look now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stir a stir image would show if

there's edema in the uh uh pedacles. Um then you know it's a new injury

and therefore it's three to four months and he recommends a Boston overlap brace 3 to four months. So,

I got to go back and look now. It was like seven years ago, so I might not be forgetting, but I'm going to look it up this afternoon.

Yeah. Yeah. But that's what it is. So, when when I have an acute low back come in as a kid, I immediately get an MRI. I

want to rule out bypass a image like a film or and you go No, I take X-rays and but a lot of times

you'll have no spondalo. There's no pars defect. However, there is edema in the

bone and and uh he calls that a pending spondylo. There's no pars defect, but

you have to treat it the same as an active spinal, 3 to four months off. Got it. So, and that's another condition that

chiropractors are unaware of that Terry has done all the work. I've been the beneficiary of learning, but we need to

get that information out to other docs as well. Yeah. Lot of work ahead of us, Dr. Yeah. So, on that note, um if someone

wants to learn more about your work or your organization, SEOA, where should

they go? Well, they can email me drt timmags.com. They can go to the website. We have a

massive amount of information, but we are going to be uh creating uh a network

of doctors now that we're, you know, really getting this thing off the ground. So, if they contact me or Chiro

Touch and let them know and Chiro can let me know, uh we'll put them on the list and keep them posted as we develop

this program. I love it. So, it's Dr. Tim Mags2gs.com,

right? Yeah. Well, it's do Dr. Tim Magg. Yes, Dr. Timmags.com.

Dr. Dr. Tim Mags for email. Perfect. And I want you to come down and I want

you to spend a day with me. I know. I have to figure We'll have to ask for permission for me to get away

from Chiro Touch for a day. Oh, Chiro Touch. I would like Cairo Touch to to pay for you to come down.

Oh, well, yes. Let's we can bring that up the chain. So you can go back and give them a report of of what you think.

Yeah, I can do that. We'll have to find out. All right, cool. Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us today.

I love the work that you're doing. Um and thanks for coming to share this with our listeners. Um we've been doing this

a few years now and I don't know, we haven't really covered a topic like this. Um obviously, so um I love the

info. Well, I'll say this. You did a spectacular job. I never have people ask me the right questions. You asked all

the right questions. You're one step ahead of me. So, thanks. Yeah. And just so everyone knows, we I have never talked to you before today,

actually. Right. So, I mean, I know I do know of you um because of for various reasons.

So, um but that's really funny. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Yeah. So, if you're a chiropractor or a

parent or maybe even a coach that wants to learn more about SEOA and how this proactive model is being brought to

communities across the country, visit Dr. Tim Mag's website, drtimmags.com

ya. That's how you spell sequoia. Um, to explore its mission and resources. Um,

thanks for listening to this episode of Chirocast brought to you by Chiro. We appreciate you being part of this

conversation and we'll see you next time. And big thanks to Dr. Tim Mags. Thank you, Doc.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Chirocast. Insights for modern chiropractors brought to you by Chiro

Touch, hosted by Dr. Stephanie Brown, produced by Debbie Brooks, editing from

Matthew Dodge, and title animation by Eric Madden. Our theme song, House 5, is

from Scott W. Brooks. If you enjoyed today's show, don't forget to like, link, and subscribe. We appreciate your

support, and we'll catch you next time.

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