Build, Collaborate, Refer: The Power of Strategic Partnerships

[Music] I spent seven years in the anatomy lab. Um, you know, I've been teaching at the

chiropractic college. I read the chiropractic research on a regular basis. I'm a firm believer at this point

that we got to start telling people what chiropractic is good for. Otherwise, they're going to try to dictate the narrative to us because either other

people are going to tell us what we're good for or we have the opportunity to go in there and tell them what we're good for. Welcome to Chirocast, the

podcast that connects chiropractic professionals with stories, insights, and strategies to grow a thriving

practice. Brought to you by Chiro. I'm Danielle Javinez. And I'm Dr. Stephanie Brown. Today, we're diving into a topic

that's often talked about, but rarely broken down step by step, and that's how to develop strong professional

relationships outside your practice. Whether it's working with care providers, attorneys, or other industry

partners, those connections can fuel referrals, improve patient care, and even open doors for advocacy. And who

better to join us today than Dr. Dr. Phil Deer, president of Cal Cairo,

adjunct professor at Life West Chiropractic College, practice owner and founder of BlueChip Consulting Firm,

which is designed to help new practitioners with job opportunities, and of course, a longtime advocate for

professional collaboration within and beyond chiropractic. Dr. Deer, welcome to Chirocast. Thank you guys so much for

having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, for sure. So, why don't we start with your story? um what sparked your passion for

building professional relationships in and around chiropractic? Well, I've always been a very collaborative person

uh by nature, you know, and so I think it started um originally when I was looking to, you know, grow my practice,

develop my practice, and started looking at sources of referral, especially like in the personal injury world. Um I was

noticing a lot of times patients were needing maybe additional services or you know people taught me in the beginning

of managing personal injury cases that it's always good to share the responsibility right and uh at least get

people evaluated even uh they were maintaining chiropractic as the focus of their treatment and that kind of thing.

So in an effort to do so I was uh looking for uh people that would either

take patients on on a lean or that type of thing. And so I really just started uh reaching out to providers that I

would hear the names of that my patients might be telling me of and really just asked them, you know, are they open to

taking leans? That was definitely a good question, I think, in the beginning in terms of are you open to taking leans,

right? Because now they saw that I was about doing business together. They saw that I was about collaborating together.

And so that opened the door for a lot of uh lunches, dinners, uh just opportunities to network myself within

the medical community and that type of thing. M uh and then you know I feel like uh a lot of it comes back to and I

always tell my students and new graduates this you know make sure you're doing your homework right we're giving you homework assignments at school for a

reason right because we want you to learn the material we want you to own the material so that when you go into

environments professional environments collaborative environments collegial experiences you have the lexicon you

have the language to be able to talk the talk the same language you know with a medical provider and in many cases even

an attorney. Uh when it comes to attorneys, you know, specifically, uh I really started looking for people that

wanted to be collaborative and that were uh taking care of people first and not necessarily just their case, right? You

know, would we we'd get referrals from attorneys or we get calls from attorneys all the time. And in many cases, I will

try to vet those attorneys andor again go out to lunch, go out to uh dinner, whatever it might be with them, just to

get a sense of who they are, how are they handling cases, you know, some of the things they might doing like are they a prata firm, uh something along

those lines that become problematic, you know, down the road. And I've learned a lot of it the hard way. But um just

really having no fear to try to go into those environments and stand, you know, represent myself, you know, stand for

tell them what I stand for from a chiropractic perspective and uh just share with them a little bit more about

who I am. I have a question. Sure. So I I love the idea of It sounds like you

were very boots on the ground knocking on doors, introducing yourself and setting up lunches and and whatnot. Did

you find that you had to educate many of the attorneys or law offices on

chiropractic before taking it to the next level or did majority of them understand chiropractic as a whole? No.

No, definitely people don't understand chiropractic nor do they even want to in many cases, you know. But I got a great

piece of advice many years ago that it's not about trying to educate people about what chiropractic is completely, you

know, as to the extent that I know it or even to make them a chiropractic advocate. Uh, but to just go into that

relationship and even though they may not know anything about it, at least they have a name and a face that in the

event that maybe they come to a a dead end in the care plan or uh they're not really sure where else to send their

patient or their client or whatever it might be, they have a name and a face that they could refer back to and say,

"Hey, you know, I don't know much about chiropractic, but that Dr. Phil guy was okay. I would see him if I, you know,

was in your shoes kind of thing." So it was more about building the rapport, establishing the relationship, showing

them that I knew what I was talking about from my perspective with respect to chiropractic. Uh not trying to

overstate my um education or my understanding of like what they do. Um

although I do uh highly recommend that, you know, understanding uh what it's like in the medical world to refer

people uh for injections, physical therapy, uh pain medications. just having that understanding of like what

are these things good for? Why would they refer for this and not that? What's the triage, you know, the the method of

triage that they're uh implementing? Or why would they recommend one thing versus another or why does this

procedure work well for this particular condition? Those kind of things became very helpful. And for me, you know, I I

um you know, I I naturally love learning, right? And I I love understanding more. I'm a factf finder

by nature. And so that was easy for me. Now, not everybody's like that, right? And um I have also then had to maintain

that level of faith and confidence in what we do from a chiropractic uh perspective to be able to go into those

worlds and still maintain, you know, my foundation, my philosophy of chiropractic, but then still be able to

understand uh what people are doing in that medical world really to take care of people the best way we can take care

of them. And as long as we put the people first and uh we remember that it's about taking care of the people, I

don't think we go wrong. And I think that's what I've been able to show people. Uh and when things came up

regarding chiropractic and you know what we do and why we do it, well then I would jump at the opportunity to say

well you know here's what we do as chiropractors, right? And um you know being an adjunct professor at Life West

was super helpful for me. I taught in the anatomy program originally and um if anybody out there doesn't feel like they

have a good handle on their anatomy, I encourage you go back to the anatomy books, understand origins, insertions,

intervations, um uh me uh mechanisms of action, all of those kind of things because when I got in those environments

and I got put to the test, I could fall back on that level of knowledge because

people don't uh study anatomy uh and biomechanics like we study as chiropractors. And so I think that's one

of our distinct advantages. Obviously, I think the philosophy of chiropractic is our distinct advantage. But being able

to understand anatomy and biomechanics the way that we do from the chiropractic perspective, that really starts to

differentiate us in that medical world. And I think added a lot of credibility to what I was doing. Yeah, definitely.

Like you're kind of talking their language a little bit and then they know that you know what you're talking about.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, one thing I think I heard you say, you didn't say this directly, but it seemed to be a theme is

that when you have these conversations with other professionals, you I mean you're telling them about yourself and

what you do or what have you, but you're also asking them what they do. And I feel like when a lot of people enter

like networking situations, they go into it like you definitely want to have your own thing ready about what you're going to say about yourself. But I think

people forget sometimes that like start with them. like ask them, ask what they do. Ask what their ideal patient or

client or whatever situation might be because then you get them going and then you start to see like okay well these

are the kind of referrals that are going to be like helpful for that person because if you start sending business to

someone's direction but it's not the kind of thing they can or want to handle like that's not going to result in something fruitful. Absolutely. And even

in those situations where you might send somebody them to them that's not a good fit and you know I I I have done that.

And so in those cases, you know, it's just a matter of, okay, well, let's refine, you know, our rapport, right?

And I, like you said, I think it's all about the collaboration, right? How much can you give before you receive kind of

thing? And so I've never gone wrong trying to figure out what's important to other people and then trying to figure

out how I could help them get what they want, right? And I think that even when I made those initial phone calls, you

know, when I was first trying to either get help from my patients or uh find attorneys that were good to work with, I

would lead with, you know, um you know, do you guys do you work cooperatively with chiropractic offices or are you

okay with chiropractors uh sending referrals your way? When you ask somebody if you're willing to um to

take, you know, to receive business, do you want me to give you money? Yeah. Do you want I didn't want to say that, Dr.

Martin. Thank you for saying that. Well, to a certain extent, that's what it ends up happening. But like you said, it's

about the patient, but it's also we all have to keep our lights on. Yeah. Can I give you money? Oh. Oh, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. What do you This is like a twofold question, but I'm super curious. Um, so

what do you do? Like you just call up a lawyer's office and say, "Hey, like you just said, are you guys open to working

with chiropractors?" Um, do you have to get past the gatekeeper? Do you have any tips about that or like how how do you

make it turn into something beyond just like, you know, a something as passive as I'm just going to send an email

because I'm introverted to I'm walking in their office and not leaving until they let me talk to the owner. You know

what I mean? You know, I always try to get myself out there in the community, especially when I was uh new at this,

right? And so I was going to chamber of commerce events. I was, you know, going to other business. I would look for business events, right? and uh find out

where attorneys were going to be, especially like in the personal injury world. Personal injury attorneys are uh

used to networking themselves and they're looking for ways to collaborate with people, right? They're usually part of these kind of groups and that um

those environments, right? And so when you're in those environments, everybody's looking for business just

like they are in a medical in that medical setting that we were just describing, right? And so I always again

go into it, what can I do for them? Can I send you business? Are you looking for people to send you business? Right? And

who's going to say no? Right? But I always make it about the relationship, right? I think it's important not to run

down the mountain too fast with somebody. Uh and uh basically set it up, you know, hey, are you interested in

going for coffee or lunch or or those kind of things, right? It's that second date phenomenon like, hey, let's it's

nice to meet you. I'm aware of who you are and what your services are. Would you want to go on a second interaction

kind of thing, right? And then that's where we start building rapport and I start to get a feel for uh do they are

they collaborative are they accepting cases you know um in an ethical manner right and are they taking care of people

in an ethical way right and so those are some of the things that I um would originally initially ask and so then the

relationship starts to develop as time went on uh and I became you know people

became more aware of my services then I would have people reaching out to me saying hey do you guys want cases but I

still would do the same thing because I want to vet the relationship, right? I don't want to just uh get into a

relationship with anybody and everybody that wants to get into a relationship with me. Exactly. Yeah, that was a super

important piece of the puzzle. I learned the hard way, you know, obviously uh by getting taken advantage of. But, uh

hopefully, you know, people that are listening, if you are interested in this, make sure like like I said,

approach it in that manner where, hey, are you looking for business? um let's you know find out more about each other,

come to my office or can I go to your clinic? Even with medical practitioners now, I really um love to go see their

facility, right? I want to know what kind of facility am I sending my people to because, you know, I I take a

personal interest in the people that I'm caring for, whether they're here for personal injury work or whether they're just here for wellness care, I want to

make sure that I'm doing right by that person. And so at the end of the day, um I look forward to those opportunity to

go uh see facilities like that. And that's been some of the coolest uh ways to develop the relationship and sort of

take it to the next level. It revolves around reputation as well. Your reputation is on the line. Their

reputation is on the line. They the common denominator is taking care of the patient, the client, and making sure

they have the best experience. So I know you mentioned learning the hard way and getting taken advantage of. It's it's a

hard experience to go through, but it's necessary so that you know how to navigate it moving forward. Um, and I

imagine in that space it you get into loyalty a little bit. How do you

navigate managing multiple relationships and perhaps in some cases competition in the

industry with medical partners or attorneys? Well, I think proximity plays a role in

some of it, right? And so I try to have you know people like in San Jose we have large uh area right and so uh sending

people to certain locations that where they might live or what's easy for them even with like MRI facilities same kind

of concept right so proximity plays a role and then certainly you know I uh the people that are treating me fairly

and that are working collaboratively I'm going to send those people uh you know work collaborative with those people

kind of thing. Um, yeah. Well, I definitely don't enter into exclusivity. You know, I don't think everybody's

right for every person. I always say different people respond differently to different chiropractors, different techniques, different people, different

offices, right? And it's really incumbent upon me to figure out what they're going to respond best to, right? And who they're going to work best with.

And I'm not even afraid to uh refer to other chiropractors. You know, I think that's one of the biggest uh challenges

we have as a profession in terms of working uh collaboratively in that respect. you know, somebody is a

pediatric specialist or somebody um does, you know, do a lot of sports related work or whatever it might be, if

they have some advanced education in those areas, sending them even like the neurology um diplomats, right? I will

send people the neur uh neurology diplomats all the time for cases that you know are not resolving regarding

dizziness or uh maybe eye movement problems or just things that are kind of lingering in in in that nature. Um but

the thing that I was going to um talk about was with regards to

you know the exclusivity and that kind of thing is that I think uh again as

long as you're keeping that the patients best interest in in mind regarding that like what would you want done to your

own family members right or how would you want it handled in your if you were the person right then I don't think you

can go wrong kind of thing. So, can you think of any like I mistakes you've

heard people made or mistakes you've made yourself maybe like things you would not recommend doing when it comes

to meeting or whether it's what when you're trying to build that relationship or even after

it's been established for a while like things you should not do. Sure. uh you

know I in in doing this kind of work and in working collaboratively with people you do get kind of almost like full of

yourself or you're like proud of yourself like oh I'm pretty good at this like these all these medical doctors are really liking me and all these attorneys

are really liking me and I must be doing something right and you are to a certain extent right but it's that old adage of

once you uh get too proud of yourself or if you have too much hubris then the universe kind of lets you know or puts

you back in your place kind of thing right and so in taking on some of those relationships that uh I may I didn't vet

as well, right? And I was like, "Oh, I'm on the map now. Everybody wants to send people to me, especially like when I got

uh I in the Spanish speaking environment, you know, I I speak uh fairly good Spanish and so I have

Spanish speaking employees at my front desk and um I have doctors in my clinic

that speak Spanish." And so we really got on the radar for uh being able to care for Spanish- speakaking patients

and that kind of thing. And uh that was a a time where we were getting a ton of uh attorneys reaching out. We really got

on the map. Oh, these guys take Spanish speaking patients, right? and uh take

not not going through that process that I was talking about before where I vetted them correctly and uh built the

relationship and it was a solid foundation because in those cases, you know, I I ran into problems where the

case got dropped or um the client fired the attorney or something along those

lines. And so, you know, just getting away from my my foundation and my

principles uh was the mistake, right? And so in in that scenario, you know,

make sure you you you get back to the basics. Stay true to yourself. Stay true to yourself and don't get too proud of

yourself. I think that's, you know, when you think you got it figured out, that's when you'll learn you don't.

That's really funny. That's the same with just like, you know, your favorite wellness patient that comes in all the

time and then suddenly you realize that you haven't seen them in a while and you're like, "Wait, where did Betty go?" And then you got to call Betty. Um, what

about working with medical doctors like outside of like PI um environment? Like

my area PI is not big at all because of our state laws and whatnot. And so like

just having a relationship with medical professionals. Um, I feel like it's easier to build relationships with other

nontraditional healthcare providers, if you want to call them that, cuz we're all trying to like have campfires and,

you know, sing songs around it. But when it comes to like reaching out to those medical people and like just getting

relationships and referrals with them, I mean, what advice do you have about that?

I mean, I always approach it uh much the same way, you know, and I and I meet a lot of these people in these networking

environments, but I'd say at this point in time, you know, people are reaching out to me because they're seeing, okay,

these uh these your my clinics are, you know, seeing a certain number of people and, you know, we are working

collaboratively um with other professionals and that kind of thing. And I approach that much the same way.

You know, I think uh at the end of the day, what again, I'll go back to different people respond differently to

different things and different people, right? And I want to be the person that can help coordinate that, quarterback

that, and get them whatever it is um that they think they need or that we

might think that they need kind of thing. Uh it's an odd phenomenon, you know, in in the chiropractic profession,

like you said, the chiropractic kumbaya, the chiropractic Kool-Aid, right? uh you know when you when you can kind

of tap into that person's innate you know it's like all of a sudden you open that trap door to healing and so in some

cases I've even noticed uh you know sending them to let's say I have massage therapy in my office or one a massage

therapy practitioner or maybe even uh working collaborative like with a pelvic

floor specialist pelvic floor physical therapy is a very popular thing in this uh community now I do work with a lot uh

OBGYNS and uh that's that's a perfect example of outside of the PI world, you

know, going into that OBGYn community, they are so they are probably one of the most knowledgeable uh medical

professionals about chiropractic care because they've already come to the conclusion that okay, I can't send them for pain management or something along

those lines and they have seen the value in uh sending their patients to chiropractors to help them navigate, you

know, that second, third trimester, all of those kind of things. Um, and so in

those environments, uh, you know, I think we've been I've been able to work very collaboratively and again, I just

go back into their offices. I want to see what services they're providing. um and although many OBGYNS are into uh

ancillary services now uh so understanding what those just being um

you know really interested in that and that's one of the things that I go back to or I've heard talked about all the

times in chiropractic circles is uh be more interested than interesting right I

think Dave Meltzer Dave Meltzer is the guy who always says that but uh uh so I always try to be interested in what what

people are doing right and how what I do fits into that uh and collaborates with

that because above all I want to preserve the relationship. I want to maintain the relationship because even

if I'm not the solution for them in in that moment, there's other people that I

can serve and that I can take care of that they might know or maybe there's even other things that I can do for

them, you know, outside of whatever it is the complaint that they came in with. And then in my uh heart of hearts, you

know, I truly believe that people need to get checked and uh adjusted on a regular basis, right? Even they need to

get checked even if they don't need to get adjusted necessarily on a regular basis because they don't know what the

implications the far-reaching implications of subluxation are or in having problems uh related to the spine

if you want to call it mechanical dysfunction, lack of movement, whatever it is. But if we can agree that the

adjustment is an important thing that helps them restore function, optimize wellness, and get back to the things

that they want to do, that's really what it's all about, right? I want to be that person for them and then help them

navigate and manage all of those other things that are going on in their life. Yeah, this is a little off topic, but

let's say you have a PI patient. Do you, you know, when they're coming into the office, are you guys teaching them about

chiropractic? Are you hoping they return as maybe a regular patient once their

case is resolved, assuming it gets resolved someday or like what does that look like? Yeah, I you know uh I think

people that are are educated as you treat them, right? I certainly we have all of our systems and our touch points

in the process in terms of introducing to them what we do, why we do it, depending on where they're at, right? I

always try to determine uh where people at. In our office, we do pre-qualification calls or tellalth

calls, whatever you want to call them, right? because I want to get a sense of who is this person, what experience do

they have with chiropractic, what's going on with them to a certain extent, but then I also want to let them know, hey, here's how we do things in our

office. You know, the majority of people are going to come in, they're going to get an examination, they may get an X-ray, um they're going to get some

version of a treatment plan over a short period of time, and we're going to re-evaluate them after that short period of time. And then we're going to

determine what their needs are going forward, right? And if you get to a point where um I think there's an

important distinction that has to be made especially you know in my clinic because we do accept insurance and so we

live in that medical necessity world but we also live in that chiropractic necessity world and that's the balance

that we all struggle to maintain sort of in an insurance-based practice right um

but at that touch point then it becomes okay you're you're seeing some improvement now okay what's your uh

medical chiropra your medical necessity need versus your chiropractic necess necessity need. And when you get to that

point when their care, let's say quote unquote, isn't any isn't medically necessary anymore, whether that's in 3

months and four months or maybe even in um one month, let's say, their their care isn't medically necessary. Um at

that point, then it becomes a matter of well, is your care chiropractically necessary? Right? And that's the

opportunity that you can invite people into regular care or wellness care or maintenance care. Um, and in many cases

I always try to make sure I'm managing a person visit to visit and not get ahead

of myself, right? And so I'm trying to use my table talk and I'm trying to use language in our interactions that are

trying to feel out like where are they in their understanding of chiropractic and in their world view really because

it's very hard to change people's world view in one visit, right? or in one report of findings and really people's

worlds world views get changed over time, right? And so when they're ready

for that next level of uh education and interaction, I'll invite them into it.

Well, have you thought about, you know, what we're doing from a chiropractic perspective and how that affects your

physiology? Right? And that's where I go back to the homework, right? And make sure you do your homework. Make sure

you're reading the research. Make sure you're following all of the people out there that are doing uh the stuff in the

chiropractic field that is really substantiating what we do to a great extent. I love Heidi Havoc's work about,

you know, how the frontal lobe of the brain lights up when when people get adjusted. Uh Scott Rose has do done work

on uh CSF flow around the brain. If you haven't seen any of that research with

respect to how the chiropractic adjustment helps people beyond pain relief, I highly recommend that you get

yourself um you know aware of that information because to me those are the far-reaching implications of using

chiropractic care as part of your lifestyle beyond pain relief, right? Like do you want your brain to function better or do you want your brain to be

healthier? I mean it's your call. Let me know. I'll be here either way. Yeah. Absolutely. So, say you have a patient

that that was referred to by another healthcare provider. Do you send like updates to them about how that person's

doing, do you send like an initial report or like how frequently would you contact them back about that patient?

Well, I'll definitely send them a report like the initial visit basically. And this is where Chyro touch comes in so

handy right here because I think uh the way that you the way that we're able to

craft somewhat like a narrative report in a in a soap note is more than sufficient for like a first visit

report, you know, the way that I do it. And you know, I've been able to customize my macros and use some of the

embedded macros that gosh, we've been I've been a Carouch client now for well over 15 years or so. and the help that I

got initially with setting up my macros in that way. I think that's where a lot of people need some additional training

and help because they can basically um craft a narrative what would be considered a narrative report from that

initial uh visit if you're doing all of your orthopedic exams, you've done your range of motion, you've talked about

what you're going to do for the patient and the plan and that kind of thing. So sending that off to somebody uh is very

simple and it helps to build that rapport and that um you know credibility that we were talking about like oh okay

these guys are they are actually taking notes okay go figure. Yes exactly oh

they're taking notes it's a good thing. Yeah I feel like it helps show your credibility. Um, so when I refer

patients out, usually to neurologist or um, neurosurgeon, I'll get reports back

and just over time I've sort of modified my own narrative and my macros to I

don't want to say we learned any, it's not that we learned something wrong. I've just noticed trends in how the medical providers do their documentation

and I've just updated my macros sometimes to match uh, what I see them doing. Like I feel like I need to put

like I need to go way over the top. this is like needs to be the longest note ever, right? But they're not going to

read a five-page narrative. They're probably going to the last page to see like like the the end. But um yeah, just

like making it to the point and thorough, but to the point. Um and just modifying some of my wording is

something I've done over the years that I think it just adds to your credibility and they understand that like, okay, we are speaking the same language. This

person is competent and like you said, oh, they're taking notes. It's a good thing. Yeah. No, you hit the nail on the head right there. And I think uh cuz I

do the same thing with their reports, right? I'm like, okay, well, what's this person going to do for them, right? Like all this other stuff, great, you know,

but okay, here's here's what you're going to do. Okay, so we'll do that and then, you know, uh see how that works

and then I'll send you back the patient once we've gone through that process, right? And I think that's another piece

of the puzzle I think that I've learned in developing these relationships is that um do that portion, right? you're

you're working in that medical necessity environment and then send the person back to the other medical provider. That

doesn't mean you can't invite them in for what's chiropractically necessary and for regular care and to maintain the

benefits of the adjustments they've received. That just means that you're going to have two paths that go on

simultaneously. Right. Exactly. And that's where the education piece, like you said, comes in. But it's nuanced in

the sense that you got to know how to introduce it. Right. And um I think that's one of the things I don't know

you know in chiropractic college you get told oh you got to tell the story right and it is important to tell the story but I think telling the story in the

first visit or the second visit or over the course of 12 visits you know can be equally as helpful and important. It has

to be mentally digestible. Um on the report front and working with other providers um I've also you know I've had

people where I wasn't able to help them. It happens. And um you know in those

situations that I think of you know they went and had surgery. Um but I'll tell you I mean a couple things two things

stand out specifically. I had a guy once show up right before Christmas with his wife and they had a car a Christmas card

and a like a fruit basket um for me. And you know I knew that he had had surgery.

I had touched base with them. I knew he was doing good. I got the report from the neurosurgeon. But they literally came into the office to say thank you.

And it's just funny because like I didn't do the surgery. Like I'm the one that couldn't help, but they saw me as

the person who got them to where they needed to be. Um, and so for them, they

were just still like really thankful about that. So, so much so to the point that they went out of their way to get me like, you know, like a little

Christmas thing or whatever. Um, and I've had other people who had surgery and were helped tremendously by it and

then a couple years later, maybe something happens and they come back in and they return to be a patient. So, I

think there's also people who are afraid to refer to other providers because it makes them think like a I failed, which

is not true, and b I'm losing a patient because they're not going to come back. Um, and that's also not always the case

either. So, if you can just do a good job, do good and be good, people will return to you. Um, you know, when the

time's right, because you're going to be front of mind because you were intelligent, you did a good job. And even if you weren't the one that

ultimately fixed the issue, you still helped them get to the place or the person where it could get fixed. So,

absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned that. I was, as you were talking, Dr. Phil, about OBGYN's creating those

relationships. I I imagine in the industry, you're a new grad or you're a new business owner, it's intimidating

and there may be some fear behind putting yourself out there and creating

those relationships, but it made me think about um my recent interaction uh

having my third baby. Um you would be surprised at how meaningful those

relationships are. or like for example, I have a midwife and when we were in conversation, she assumed I was under

chiropractic care. I didn't offer that information. We were kind of talking about the the pelvic pain, you know,

that comes along with babies and whatnot. And she said, "Well, what did your chiropractor say? What do they have

you doing?" And it t it took me off guard. I was like, "Uh, well, uh, let's

talk through that." But they she assumed I was one under, you know, chiropractic

care, frequent chiropractic care, and two that I would have already have the tools necessary to overcome some of

these challenges. And it when you were talking about it, I was like, I hope that other listeners, they're hearing

that how meaningful relationships are, but put yourself out there. You'd be surprised at how open other providers

are to creating those relationships because I know um one of the

chiropractors in my time that I was seeing, she said, "We have to play well in the sandbox together. We as a

chiropractor, we're not always going to have all the solutions all the time. So having those resources to and an ability

to know, hey, I've gotten you to, you know, the end of where I can get you. let me get you to the next step and then

I'll see you back whenever. Um, so not being afraid to step out there. But, um,

I wanted to ask, how do you get over those fears of maybe rejection that

could happen or just getting started and putting yourself out there? It's intimidating. Sure. And as I was sitting

here and thinking about it too, I think you had asked me earlier about um, one of the mistakes maybe I made. Um, you

know, if I had to do it over again, if I especially if I liked working with new and expectant mothers or or uh babies

and that kind of thing, I would certainly uh get my deliverables together and just go start doing some

cold calling on OB/GYNs. I mean, you've got more time than patients uh in the beginning of practice. Like 20 I'm

thinking about 20 years ago, right? if I had built a referral pad at that time, which I have now. Um, and I had I have a

pelvic floor um, rehabilitation uh, presentation that I put together and I

have a or how chiropractic relates to that and I have a flyer that I basically have created much like you said, Dr.

Stephanie, about here's what the MDs are doing from a business development perspective. I just watched that about

all the ser here's here's my flyer about all the services and I would go to I would look up on Google every uh OBGYn

within you know 15 miles of me and I would go knock on each one of their doors and uh you know show up just like

the uh other healthcare providers do or business development people or the medical device people do with a box of

crumble cookies and I would say I'm Dr. Phil, I'm new to the area. Love working with new and expecting mothers. Would

you mind if I left you my information and my referral pet? You're going to get a lot more yeses than nos, like you

said, because different era, better understanding. Who says no to cookies? Yeah, exactly right. Uh and uh and then

certainly, you know, you have the opportunity to ask that front desk, hey, is uh Dr. You know, Smith or Dr. Jones

available uh to do uh lunch or coffee or are they willing to talk with me more about who I am, what I do, and who I

serve. Right. It's a simple question. It's yes or no. It's not that um I guess daunting, you know, in my mind now. But

if you needed a script to get, you know, at this point to kind of like you said, get past that that fear. That's the

script. You know, if you want me you want to call me, I I'll be happy to rehearse it with you or you can just

watch this recording over. you know, would you be willing or w is your doctor willing to uh sit down for coffee,

lunch, you know, or even have me back just to look at uh understand more about your practice uh so that we can start to

build that relationship, right? And so I think, you know, um to really get back to your question, for me, I'm a big uh

you know, I learned a long time ago from Dennis Perman and Bob Hoffman, it's be do have, right? And you got to be the

person to do the things to have the things, right? And so it goes back to things like visualization, affirmations,

goal setting, uh setting, getting your mind right with podcasts, reading, uh

listening to things, you know, maybe audiobooks that help build you up in strong and noble thought in that regard

so that when you go into those environments, you know your own self-worth, right? Because we're all going to go, we're all going to have

highs and lows. We're going to go through trials and tribulations and life happens while we build our practice,

right? So, you've got to have a system in place. I use a tool called the winners's journal from Pam Carl's that I

have stood, you know, stood the test of time over the last 15 years to help me set the tone for each and every day. And

I can literally look back on the things that I have in my life uh now that I

wrote down 15 years ago in those winners journals because it wasn't about just wishing for it and writing it down. It

was about taking the steps and doing the things that I needed to to get myself in a position to make them happen, right?

And so I'm a huge advocate of doing those type of things so that you don't get beat down by the world. You don't

get uh you know cuz you're going to come across I've been in situations now, you know, as a president of Kairo. I' I'm a

a political advocacy kind of that's kind of where I've built my my myself up, my

reputation, right? because I guess I've uh been able to get beat up enough in those other environments that now I can

go into these legislative arenas and whether or not somebody likes me or doesn't like me or wants to tell me what

chiropractic is good for or believes in chiropractic or doesn't believe in chiropractic, I can stand up to that

because I don't base my self-worth on their opinion, right? Or on the good opinion of other people because I've

done my homework. I've I spent seven years in the anatomy lab. Um, you know, I've been teaching at the chiropractic

college. I read the chiropractic research on a regular basis. So, if you want to try to tell me what chiropractic is good for, we're going to have a long

probably uh discussion that uh maybe has some animosity to it because I'm a firm

believer at this point that we got to start telling people what chiropractor is good for. Otherwise, they're going to try to dictate the narrative to us. I

love that. Yeah. Uh so on that note, I mean so you've been in the position to see like what the power of advocacy um

and those kinds of relationships can impact policy and the effect that's going to have like statewide on practice

and whatnot um other professionals. So can you talk to us a little bit about that like the importance of a

chiropractor's relationship with their organizations and and and just some of

your feedback there? Yeah. Well, I mean, certainly I'm an advocate of being part of your chiropractic association in

whatever state. I think uh like I said, it it really boils down to standing up for our profession. Uh because either

other people are going to tell us what we're good for or we have the opportunity to go in there and tell them what we're good for just like you and I

were talking about in terms of uh representing ourselves as professionals and as individuals in those

collaborative relationships, right? And it's the same thing now on I guess the

next step up right in terms of the legislative arena. Uh there's things all the time that go on. People don't even

know it, you know, what their chiropractic associations do for them to maintain their ability to practice. And

people will tell me a lot of times, well, I don't want to get involved in politics. Well, you're involved whether you like it or not kind of thing. These

kind of things could affect you whether you like it or not. And I can understand what they're saying is they don't want to go in and do the things that I do and

they're not comfortable doing the things that I do, which is fine because I'm willing to go in there and do that for

people and for our profession. But I wholeheartedly would uh say getting

involved in your association at a minimum as a member, you know, we have uh memberships that are as low as, you

know, one adjustment a month, you know, type of thing in many cases. And I would uh guess that most associations do. So

it's a minimal commitment. It always boils down to value, right? And people keep coming back to, well, what's in it

for me or what's important to me, right? And many associations have things that are important to people. Um whether it's

benefits, services, educational opportunities, and those go without saying, but you're not going to find any

other organization typically than your state organization or your national organization that's representing you in

that legislative capacity. And I have been in scenarios with legislators, mostly legislative fundraising people,

that have straight up asked me, "What's wrong with you chiropractors?" Right. What do you mean? That doesn't happen.

Like, yeah, exactly. And in that moment, I mean, the whole room went silent. I was in a room full of advocates from

Blue Shield, Blue Cross, all of these different unions and things of that nature. What did you say? Well, I took a

deep breath, first of all, cuz I was like starting to sweat and uh

that kind of thing. But I just reminded myself what we are good for and why I do what I what I what I do, right? And I

started telling them about the chiropractic philosophy and that the body's a self-healing entity and that we're trying to give the body an

opportunity to heal itself, right? And I could feel that whole room softened in that moment, right? And by the end of

that evening, every uh legislative advocate in that room from all of the different organizations were coming up

to me and telling me their chiropractic story. So those kind of opinions exist at high levels, right? and they will

influence legislators in policym decisions and uh whether we're included

in budgetary or regulatory environments and that type of thing. I mean in California, we're still fighting, you

know, to get inclusion into the essential health benefits that President Obama said everybody was entitled to uh

have access to. We're one of only four states still that's trying to, you know, bridge that gap kind of thing. And so,

um, there's many other, uh, fights that go on, uh, nationally and, uh, locally,

but, you know, I'm I'm a huge advocate of of standing up for ourselves because, um, like I said, either we tell people

what we're good for or they're going to tell us. They're going to tell us. Let's pretend I'm in a state where everything's good. I'm a member of my

organization or not, but I'm good. No problems with practice and everything's great. But then you start hearing about

things happening in other states. So, is there a use case or purpose for me to be

in my state's organization and supportive of them when there's things going on in other states that I maybe

don't like for chiropractic? Does that make sense? Sure. I think you know, you

know, I work with an organ as part of the president of the state association here in California, we work with an

organization called Cairo Congress, which is more on a national scale, right? And so we have opportunities to

work collaboratively with them about things that might be going on in other states. And then just the ability of

like one state president to interact with another state president or executive director on an issue or a

topic that is important, you know, to the associ to the profession in general, right? That gives you the ability to

reach out with that level of um I guess credibility, right? Because because that's it comes back to that common

language again, right? When you talk to legislators and you talk to other state associations,

it's hard for an individual to break through in that regard. Whereas a state president or a executive director is

going to get access to them because they have that common language. And it's the same uh phenomenon here, you know, in in

our state or in any state. If you have a concern about something that's happening on a state level, the ability of your

state association to reach out to this legislator regarding that issue is much more powerful than uh one individual

doing it, right? It's that strength and numbers concept. And so I think um I I can't speak highly enough about that.

You know, I wish more people felt like I do, but as we talked about, I love the chiropractic Kool-Aid and this is

something I've dedicated my life to and uh something that I will, you know, I'll

go to my grave defending uh the importance of chiropractic care as as people's as part of people's lives.

Yeah. I guess I'll just say that, you know, if you're cool in your state and everything's hunky dory, that's great. But if you see things going on in other

states that maybe you think are not great. So for example, there's a state that just removed chiropractic from uh

Medicaid coverage in that state, uh other states that are trying to add medicine and change copus practice or

whatever. So I feel like if there's things going on in other states that someone might not love, but it's not

going on in their state, people have a tendency to be like, "Oh, well that doesn't affect me." But I see those things as the types of things that can

um spread like the domino effect. It's kind of Yeah. So, I think um I think

being active to to be in those advocacy positions, however someone can manage it

is fine. If they don't have the time, then just be a member and give your money, I guess. Um but it it'll be

coming for you eventually. And I don't want to say it's going to be too late to join like the day before someone's going

to take your license to practice away, but it might be. Um I always remember that saying about the only thing evil

needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing. Exactly. It's like the bystander effect. Everybody, it lives in

their bubble and they're like, "Oh, other someone else is going to take care of it. I'm going to keep running my practice. Everything's going to be

fine." And you know, my scope of practice won't change cuz other people are dealing with it for me. So, I think

you have to get out of that bubble because I operate under the be the change that you want to see in the

world. And it only takes one person to make a difference. Um, and I've always believed that. So, if you're listening

out there and you've been on the fence, get involved to some capacity. You don't have to go, like Dr. Phil said, you

don't have to be up at the podium yelling at legislators unless you want to be, but um strengthen numbers. And

for Dr. Phil to go up there and yell at those legislators, having that crew behind him can only be helpful. Yeah.

Well, Dr. Deer, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, all these insights

have been really helpful. um just to help everybody see how they can build those relationships professionally that

really are needed not just individually but I think it helps us as a whole as a profession like all these little

individual things that we do for ourselves just reflect positively on all of us. So thanks for all the work that

you do there and sharing your wealth of knowledge with all of us today. Oh my pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

Yeah, absolutely. And whether you're new in practice or 20 years in, strengthening your connections outside

your four walls can elevate your care and your community impact. So to our listeners, uh what relationships have

made the biggest difference in your practice? Um send us your stories, questions, or other topics you'd like to

see us cover in future podcasts to chairocast at kyrotouch.com. And if you

enjoyed today's conversation, please like, link, and subscribe wherever you listen. We've got more inspiring guests

and real world tips coming your way. Thank you for listening. Thank you for joining us on this episode of

Chairocast. Insights for modern chiropractors brought to you by Chairo Touch. Hosted by Dr. Stephanie Brown and

Danielle Javas, produced by Debbie Brooks. Editing from Matthew Dodge. Our

theme song, House 5, is from Scott W. Brooks. If you enjoyed today's show,

don't forget to like, link, and subscribe. We appreciate your support and we'll catch you next time.

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